The following is the transcript of the second Arts Salon held at the Quadrapop Tree Gallery in Pelinor in SecondLife.
The Transcript has been edited for removal of stats warnings etc only.
If any of the participants require the removal of their contributions/presence please contact Quadrapop Lane in world.
[2008/05/24 17:14] You: well welcome to this weeks Salon on RL art in SL
[2008/05/24 17:14] You: feel free to ask quaetsions or talk about any issues you have regarding RL art in SL
[2008/05/24 17:14] RITCHEY Jacobus: okay
[2008/05/24 17:15] RITCHEY Jacobus: may i tell you what happened to me
[2008/05/24 17:15] Octaine Quinnell: Yep
[2008/05/24 17:15] You: I know Ritchey uses SL as an extension of his online painting sales
[2008/05/24 17:15] You: please do Ritchey - I'm glad you came
[2008/05/24 17:15] Octaine Quinnell: Oh
[2008/05/24 17:16] You shout: WElcome Ray - come join us
[2008/05/24 17:16] You: graba seat - plenty for all
[2008/05/24 17:17] RITCHEY Jacobus is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:17] You: oops ritchey crashed
[2008/05/24 17:17] Ray Holgado: hello all
[2008/05/24 17:17] Nimbus Rau: out of curiosity, is anyone else not seeing the avatars here loaded properly? I'm seeing people made of grey playdoh, and white misty unrezzed clouds.
[2008/05/24 17:17] White Lebed: hey
[2008/05/24 17:17] You: welcome to teh quadrapop Tree and the Salon
[2008/05/24 17:17] Octaine Quinnell: Yes me too
[2008/05/24 17:17] You: yep me too Nimbus
[2008/05/24 17:17] RITCHEY Jacobus is Online
[2008/05/24 17:17] White Lebed: I can see only my avatar rezzed
[2008/05/24 17:17] You: SL is doing its usual weirdness
[2008/05/24 17:18] Ray Holgado: its called lag
[2008/05/24 17:18] Nimbus Rau: ah, ok, it's not just me then.
[2008/05/24 17:18] You: you are mostly rezzed for me NImbus
[2008/05/24 17:18] Octaine Quinnell: I can't res my clothing item either
[2008/05/24 17:18] RITCHEY Jacobus: hmmm
[2008/05/24 17:18] RITCHEY Jacobus: back
[2008/05/24 17:18] You: wb Ritchey
[2008/05/24 17:18] White Lebed: do we have to look at something?
[2008/05/24 17:18] Nimbus Rau: ah well, the white clouds are more interesting than Ruths, at least.
[2008/05/24 17:18] You: lol
[2008/05/24 17:18] White Lebed: we can treat it as an yahoo art chat room
[2008/05/24 17:19] Juanita Deharo: WOOPS LOL
[2008/05/24 17:19] You: welcome Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:19] RITCHEY Jacobus: hi juanita
[2008/05/24 17:19] Juanita Deharo: HI ALL
[2008/05/24 17:19] Octaine Quinnell: I had temp res advertising textures the other night - very strange. I thought I had picked up a bad script
[2008/05/24 17:19] You: Ritchey was about to tell us of his experiences with RL art in SL
[2008/05/24 17:19] Octaine Quinnell: Hi Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:20] Juanita Deharo: HI OCTAINE
[2008/05/24 17:20] elros Tuominen is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:20] Juanita Deharo: woops sorry didnt mean to shout
[2008/05/24 17:20] Octaine Quinnell: hehe
[2008/05/24 17:20] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes any way juanita i was telling them about the issue the other week
[2008/05/24 17:20] You: (and then he crashed before we heard it)
[2008/05/24 17:20] Juanita Deharo: yes - how does one prove anything on the internet/ let alone SL
[2008/05/24 17:20] RITCHEY Jacobus: i was removed from a show for stealing my art from my web site
[2008/05/24 17:21] Linc Nefarious is Online
[2008/05/24 17:21] White Lebed: lol
[2008/05/24 17:21] White Lebed: how so?
[2008/05/24 17:21] You: oh that is rich...
[2008/05/24 17:21] Octaine Quinnell: Yes very hard that one Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:21] Juanita Deharo: It's an interesting question though - how does an avatar prove which real life person they are?
[2008/05/24 17:22] You: did you get that one sorted out or just give up?
[2008/05/24 17:22] Octaine Quinnell: What was that Quad
[2008/05/24 17:22] RITCHEY Jacobus: no i couldnt be bothereed i have 4 of my own gallerys on sl
[2008/05/24 17:22] Juanita Deharo: I was the curator of the show Quad and it was withdrawn - not just Ritchey's work but the whole show
[2008/05/24 17:22] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes
[2008/05/24 17:23] Juanita Deharo: but it raises interesting questions doesnt it
[2008/05/24 17:23] Octaine Quinnell: Yes I am still angry about that too Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:23] You: I know Juanita I was part of it
[2008/05/24 17:23] Ray Holgado: I am not Ray Holgado in RL
[2008/05/24 17:23] RITCHEY Jacobus: but no one would come to me to variffy
[2008/05/24 17:23] Linc Nefarious: hello everyone
[2008/05/24 17:24] Ray Holgado: I could pretend to be Ricthey's real life persona
[2008/05/24 17:24] You: welcome Linc
[2008/05/24 17:24] RITCHEY Jacobus: hi linc
[2008/05/24 17:24] Ray Holgado: as well as he does probably
[2008/05/24 17:24] You: graba seat
[2008/05/24 17:24] White Lebed: well I deliberately separated my rl art from sl art - they have no connection at all - my objects here are pure SL creations - makes life easy
[2008/05/24 17:24] Octaine Quinnell: The Australian copyright Council has a real Grey area for proof of ownership
[2008/05/24 17:24] Octaine Quinnell: Yes well - White that seems to be the popular thing to do in SL
[2008/05/24 17:24] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes on my web site i have links to sl and the person making the clame could have contacted me
[2008/05/24 17:25] White Lebed: I love the possibilities to do here stuff that I can only think about in rl - why upload rl stuff? let it be real
[2008/05/24 17:25] Juanita Deharo: there are all sorts of ways that might have been checked - there were websites embedded in the painitngs and a notecard giver - itwas just mischevous
[2008/05/24 17:25] Octaine Quinnell: It does not help artists like Ritchey and myself who use SL to promote our RL art though
[2008/05/24 17:25] You: seems silly - you have been doing this for some time and even have sl resiendts who have purchased your RL works via the website after seeing it in sl...
[2008/05/24 17:25] Ray Holgado: But how can Ritchey prove he is Ritchet Sealy?
[2008/05/24 17:25] RITCHEY Jacobus: no im using sl as a web tool to ppromote my art globaly
[2008/05/24 17:26] Linc Nefarious: I like the idea of buying an SL artwork and getting the RL one also
[2008/05/24 17:26] You: buy one of his works and see...
[2008/05/24 17:26] White Lebed: if you come with open identity and put your rl information, do blogs etc - it is not a problem, right?
[2008/05/24 17:26] RITCHEY Jacobus: all my group notices are directed at ritchey sealy and my web site and rl contacts
[2008/05/24 17:27] Octaine Quinnell: Oh - that is how Crossworlds works
[2008/05/24 17:27] Ray Holgado: in your case becuase you are selling rl work as well it seems pretty clear
[2008/05/24 17:27] You: Crossworlds?
[2008/05/24 17:27] Ray Holgado: but what if I just copied some stuff and said it was mine
[2008/05/24 17:27] Ray Holgado: how could I prove I was that person?
[2008/05/24 17:27] Octaine Quinnell: Gallery run by fabillene
[2008/05/24 17:28] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes thatsiv see it happen
[2008/05/24 17:28] Ray Holgado: I saw some Aboriginal work at Cetus
[2008/05/24 17:28] Ray Holgado: clealry copied from the net
[2008/05/24 17:28] You: now that would be easy to prove - Ricthey can provide proof of copyright ownership - if you simply pull it off the web lawyers would npt nbe able to see RL physical object to correspond
[2008/05/24 17:28] Ray Holgado: and attributed to one artist
[2008/05/24 17:29] Ray Holgado: I couls say I had sold the object Quad
[2008/05/24 17:29] You: yes I am uneasy about Aboriginal works being used in SL
[2008/05/24 17:29] White Lebed: I learned long time ago - if you art is any good it will be copied in one way or another or openliy stolen, no way around it
[2008/05/24 17:29] Ray Holgado: The owner had a story - but it was concocted
[2008/05/24 17:29] You: biut Ray if you are the real artist you would have other works or working drawings
[2008/05/24 17:29] Ray Holgado: It took me a lot of work to find em on the net but I did
[2008/05/24 17:29] White Lebed: I prefer to use my energy to creat new instead of defending old
[2008/05/24 17:29] You: you dont sell all of an artwork when it is sold
[2008/05/24 17:29] Octaine Quinnell: A whole web site is not covered by Australian copy right only the individual items displayed within
[2008/05/24 17:30] Ray Holgado: how does that work Octaine?
[2008/05/24 17:30] Octaine Quinnell: Look under the article - I will just get the reference one moment
[2008/05/24 17:30] fabilene Cortes: Hello, everyone
[2008/05/24 17:30] Juanita Deharo: It is not really a question of law is it, but of practice. We are hardly going to have lawyers checking it all out in SL
[2008/05/24 17:30] Nimbus Rau: So the layout of the website, the "look and feel", of it, isn't copyrightable?
[2008/05/24 17:31] RITCHEY Jacobus: hi fabilene
[2008/05/24 17:31] Juanita Deharo: hi fab
[2008/05/24 17:31] Octaine Quinnell: Welcome Fabilene
[2008/05/24 17:31] RITCHEY Jacobus: thing is sl is such a new frontee for the arts
[2008/05/24 17:31] Falen Baar is Online
[2008/05/24 17:31] Larkum Woodget is Online
[2008/05/24 17:32] You: HI Fabilene welocme
[2008/05/24 17:32] Nimbus Rau: And the issues regarding copyright will of course vary depending on the form of one's artwork.
[2008/05/24 17:32] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes
[2008/05/24 17:32] Juanita Deharo: Ritchey in your case it seems very clear - you are using it as a marketing tool for your rl work and have very clear contacts and identification. It seems ludicrouos that uyou are the person who was ingled out!
[2008/05/24 17:32] Juanita Deharo: But for most sl artists the connection to rl is not evident
[2008/05/24 17:33] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes indeed
[2008/05/24 17:33] You: the cuirators of the show obviously did not do their homework... otherwise they would know your work is yours lol
[2008/05/24 17:33] Nimbus Rau: It'd be a lot harder for someone to copy an entire avatar, or one of Glyph Graves's works, than the work of someone who did paintings or suchlike in SL.
[2008/05/24 17:33] Juanita Deharo: well there are such things as copuybots
[2008/05/24 17:33] RITCHEY Jacobus: but i wasnt contacted by the porson making the acusation
[2008/05/24 17:33] Nimbus Rau: I missed the actual issue that started this discussion (crashed); can I have a potted summary?
[2008/05/24 17:33] You: difficult Nimbus but not impossible
[2008/05/24 17:33] Juanita Deharo: copyright within SL for creators is a BIG issue
[2008/05/24 17:34] Nimbus Rau: yeah, but copybots can't copy scripts or anims or sounds.
[2008/05/24 17:34] Linc Nefarious: but who neeeds to prove themselves the person making the acusation of the the target?
[2008/05/24 17:34] Nimbus Rau: A perms screwup would be a more likely source of copying probs, for me.
[2008/05/24 17:34] White Lebed: I met once a very talented painter at some small town art show - she was too good for the small booth, but she refuses to make a website nor have a digital pictures because of all this - she didn't gain much, still unknown
[2008/05/24 17:35] Ray Holgado: lol white!
[2008/05/24 17:35] Juanita Deharo: yes there is a thing as being too afraid
[2008/05/24 17:35] White Lebed: we take risk when we go public to become known famous and yes taken advantage of
[2008/05/24 17:35] Juanita Deharo: for me though as a gallery owner who shows other peoples work it is sometimes hard to find out if the av really owns the wrok
[2008/05/24 17:35] Juanita Deharo: work
[2008/05/24 17:36] Octaine Quinnell: OK back sorry
[2008/05/24 17:36] Juanita Deharo: unless they are willing to give a rl identity and links
[2008/05/24 17:36] You: there is an element of trust involved
[2008/05/24 17:36] Ray Holgado: and for some there are all sorts of reasons not to do that
[2008/05/24 17:36] You: yes i agree Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:36] Octaine Quinnell: Article G35 of the Australian Copyright act has some interesting points for proof of owner ship
[2008/05/24 17:36] RITCHEY Jacobus: i do also
[2008/05/24 17:36] Nimbus Rau: yes. some of us simply *aren't* willing to provide RL identity information on any request.
[2008/05/24 17:36] You: Manx is one - he has his reasons for not having a lionk between his SL and RL works
[2008/05/24 17:36] Octaine Quinnell: http://www.copyright.org.au/
[2008/05/24 17:37] Nimbus Rau: I've thought about this a bit, and for me I think the issue likely may boil down to "are the copies hurting my sales?"
[2008/05/24 17:37] Juanita Deharo: What is the relevant point there Octaine?
[2008/05/24 17:37] Nimbus Rau: I can't totally prevent folk from illegally copying my work in SL, if they're determined to. And paranoia can be really destructive.
[2008/05/24 17:37] Juanita Deharo: Nimbus it is a wider issue than just the personal economical effects
[2008/05/24 17:37] Nimbus Rau: It is, I know. That's just my personal yardstick.
[2008/05/24 17:38] Juanita Deharo: You cant prevent people from copying your work in rl or on the internet either - except by invoking the law
[2008/05/24 17:38] You: and even then it is alwasy after the fact...
[2008/05/24 17:38] Ray Holgado: lol yes- after they have made a fortune from your ideas
[2008/05/24 17:38] Nimbus Rau: and that way lies lawyers - which can get complicated and expensive.
[2008/05/24 17:38] Octaine Quinnell: Sorry - it has reslove the problems with not having a means to display the copyright and hence the true owner of the artwork in question.
[2008/05/24 17:39] Octaine Quinnell: Ideas are not covered by copyright
[2008/05/24 17:39] Ray Holgado: interesting Octaine
[2008/05/24 17:39] White Lebed: if someone can steal my ideas and make a fortune I will just hire htat person to be my agent
[2008/05/24 17:39] Jon Haskell is Online
[2008/05/24 17:39] You: no that is the pervue of patents
[2008/05/24 17:39] White Lebed: like I did with Music Hyun lol
[2008/05/24 17:39] You: lol
[2008/05/24 17:40] Juanita Deharo: so what about people like Minsky who are starting to take out SL trademarks and tell everyone else they can't use names and things in SL?
[2008/05/24 17:40] Nimbus Rau: That's my understanding, too. someone could go over my work prim by prim and duplicate it, creating their own copycat textures and reverse-engineering the scripts. I don't believe it's illegal, just, um, annoying. :-\
[2008/05/24 17:40] You: and more work than creating their own avs...
[2008/05/24 17:40] Nimbus Rau: exactly.
[2008/05/24 17:41] You: but that is sl artwork in sl... we are talking RL art brought in to sl
[2008/05/24 17:41] White Lebed: they probably do it to gain skills - then they will do some original work
[2008/05/24 17:41] You: slightly different perspective
[2008/05/24 17:41] White Lebed: let them be
[2008/05/24 17:41] Nimbus Rau: ah, I thought the topic of the discussion was artwork in sl in general, not specifically rl art in sl.
[2008/05/24 17:41] Juanita Deharo: as artists I can't see why one would do that - exfcept to use it as a marketing tool - like Ritchety - in which case one would have rl links
[2008/05/24 17:41] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes
[2008/05/24 17:42] You: well it is a bit of both - as one of the topics we could cover is how to use your rl art in sl in a sl creative way
[2008/05/24 17:42] Octaine Quinnell: Nim your scripts are covered by copyright and therefore if you wanted too waste alot of money trying to catch them at it - well you have everuy right.
[2008/05/24 17:42] Juanita Deharo: Otherwise why bring it in? It doesnt need to be in SSL - it adds nothing to the artwork
[2008/05/24 17:42] White Lebed: Ritchey anybody ever came to you in RL to buy something becasue of SL?
[2008/05/24 17:42] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes iv sold rl from sl
[2008/05/24 17:43] Juanita Deharo: and I have had some rl work from artworks created in sl
[2008/05/24 17:43] RITCHEY Jacobus: and have met people who know me in rl
[2008/05/24 17:43] Octaine Quinnell: True Juanita - although it does help self promote. Even if we operate under our Alias
[2008/05/24 17:44] Ray Holgado: Ritchey do you sell much art in sl- that is sl artwork?
[2008/05/24 17:44] RITCHEY Jacobus: all my art is my rl art images
[2008/05/24 17:44] White Lebed: I belive that artists should be deep into creation - sales, protectons, promotions, etc is up to their agents - just my point of view
[2008/05/24 17:44] RITCHEY Jacobus: i do sell them in sl though
[2008/05/24 17:44] RITCHEY Jacobus: as images
[2008/05/24 17:44] Nimbus Rau: That assumes one has an agent, though.
[2008/05/24 17:45] Ray Holgado: yes - I mean have you sold it in sl for sl purposes? or are most of your sales via sl going to rl?
[2008/05/24 17:45] Octaine Quinnell: I have drawn up plans to create RL works from my SL art as well. It works well as a medium for creating real space ideas. Challenging us to work out how to produce the effects in RL
[2008/05/24 17:45] Juanita Deharo: yes Octaine
[2008/05/24 17:45] RITCHEY Jacobus: people by my images in sl for sl momes and collections
[2008/05/24 17:45] RITCHEY Jacobus: homes
[2008/05/24 17:45] You: now there is a onother issue...
[2008/05/24 17:45] Juanita Deharo: But if you emailed a gallery in rl as Octaine Quinnell they would want a CV and to meet you etc etc
[2008/05/24 17:46] White Lebed: how showing photos and paitings in sl is different from showing them on your website? any advanteges for 2D art here?
[2008/05/24 17:46] Ray Holgado: ah - more than they buy in sl for rl?
[2008/05/24 17:46] You: sl art taken into RL - how to prove the rl work is not a rip off of an SL work and as they are in different "worlds" does it matter? Are they two spearate works regardless?
[2008/05/24 17:46] Juanita Deharo: MMM - It is all very interesting
[2008/05/24 17:47] Juanita Deharo: There are some videos someone took of my sl work on U Tube
[2008/05/24 17:47] Juanita Deharo: how to I complain and who do i complain to?
[2008/05/24 17:47] Octaine Quinnell: No not if they are easliy identified according to Australian Copyright Law. This is covered in thesame Article
[2008/05/24 17:47] White Lebed: why would you complain? that is a free promotion
[2008/05/24 17:48] Juanita Deharo: lol yes- but what if they were not attributed to me (which they are) but to someone else?
[2008/05/24 17:48] White Lebed: Crap Mariner made a video of my sclupture I sent him thankyou
[2008/05/24 17:48] Octaine Quinnell: Ideas displayed in Sl are published - just the same as they are on a web page or book
[2008/05/24 17:48] Juanita Deharo: WQho would I speak to and how could I prove they were mine
[2008/05/24 17:48] Linc Nefarious: add a comment to the utube video tell people of the real source.
[2008/05/24 17:48] Juanita Deharo: and would it be me rl or Junita?
[2008/05/24 17:48] White Lebed: they didn't mention your name? yack
[2008/05/24 17:48] Nimbus Rau: well, if it were me I'd start by emailing the poster of the video and saying "you seem to have an error in your attribution..." and see where it went from there.
[2008/05/24 17:49] Juanita Deharo: yes they did but I am asking hypothetcailly what if the attributed them to someone else?
[2008/05/24 17:49] Ray Holgado: Is an avatar a legal entity?
[2008/05/24 17:49] Nimbus Rau: you mean insisting that the other person made them even after you'd said "hey, I made that!"?
[2008/05/24 17:49] Nimbus Rau: An avatar, no. but the person behind it, most certainly! *laugh*
[2008/05/24 17:49] Ray Holgado: could an avatar seek legal assistance?
[2008/05/24 17:50] Ray Holgado: could an avatar have copyright?
[2008/05/24 17:50] Octaine Quinnell: yes Nim
[2008/05/24 17:50] Octaine Quinnell: No Ray
[2008/05/24 17:50] Juanita Deharo: yes - I guess there are a few directions to go
[2008/05/24 17:50] You: good poinrt Ray - and yet to be proved in court anywhere
[2008/05/24 17:50] Nimbus Rau: I don't believe so. At best, an avatar would likely be considered an alias, I'd guess, or a pen-name type thing.
[2008/05/24 17:50] White Lebed: I would like to see the judge who can understand that someone stole a sculpture that does't exist froma person who doesn't exist and sold it for money which don't exist
[2008/05/24 17:50] Ray Holgado: What about a shared avatar
[2008/05/24 17:51] Octaine Quinnell: We as Avatars work as a ghost writer does in litereary terms
[2008/05/24 17:51] You: lol White
[2008/05/24 17:51] Ray Holgado: Tyhere are avatars who are used by several rl people
[2008/05/24 17:51] Saitot Tammas is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:51] You: which is agaionst TOS Ray
[2008/05/24 17:51] Nimbus Rau: SL TOS forbids shared avatars, so that would open a whole different can of worms, I suspect.
[2008/05/24 17:51] You: can get your account cancelled
[2008/05/24 17:51] Ray Holgado: I am just thinking off the top of my head here
[2008/05/24 17:51] White Lebed: yes PR avatars
[2008/05/24 17:51] White Lebed: secret topic lol
[2008/05/24 17:51] Ray Holgado: woops - I had better not let you know how many peole use me then
[2008/05/24 17:51] You: lol
[2008/05/24 17:52] Linc Nefarious: whoch Ray are we talking to now?
[2008/05/24 17:52] Ray Holgado: oh I am always Ray
[2008/05/24 17:52] Ray Holgado: That is the issue
[2008/05/24 17:52] Linc Nefarious: heh
[2008/05/24 17:52] Ray Holgado: I have an identity - but is it legal?
[2008/05/24 17:52] You: good question - and what about RL entities who are multiple personalities...
[2008/05/24 17:52] You: using a single av in sl
[2008/05/24 17:52] Linc Nefarious: ohhhh
[2008/05/24 17:53] White Lebed: officially they don't exist
[2008/05/24 17:53] White Lebed: but we know they do
[2008/05/24 17:53] You: legally no - thankfully
[2008/05/24 17:53] Nimbus Rau: Re the original question - my next step, in that scenario would be to contact youtube directly and ask for the video to be taken down. they're known to do that for copyright infringements. And if one created the item, it would surely be the case that one would be able to show some evidence of that - original artwork in rl, photoshop files of textures, etc etc?
[2008/05/24 17:53] Juanita Deharo: But is there a point to bringing rl art into sl and putting it on walls as 2D unless you are linking it to RL sales?
[2008/05/24 17:53] RITCHEY Jacobus: is therw an arts register in sl were artists can register works and names
[2008/05/24 17:53] You: sharing your images
[2008/05/24 17:54] You: no
[2008/05/24 17:54] Linc Nefarious: Juanita...why not? a new market for your art
[2008/05/24 17:54] Donita Spyker is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:54] Nimbus Rau: Making SL sales in and of itself isn't a good reason? I know someone who does that with her RL art, and it seems to work for her.
[2008/05/24 17:54] Octaine Quinnell: Yes sharing that is a good point
[2008/05/24 17:54] Juanita Deharo: well yes Linc - but as I said only seems reasonable if it is linked to rl
[2008/05/24 17:54] Nimbus Rau: well, folks' definitions of "reasonable" can vary.
[2008/05/24 17:54] You: SL is a social networking site - you could bring your RL 2d in for social reasons not linked to monetry gain but still have copyright situations to deal with
[2008/05/24 17:54] Juanita Deharo: Ok Nimbus - I see- to make SL money yes
[2008/05/24 17:55] Nimbus Rau: Perhaps someone has a body of RL work that they created previously, and they're selling it in Sl simply to generate an SL income for themselves That seems quite "reasonable" to me.
[2008/05/24 17:55] Octaine Quinnell: I have people just view my stuff in SL and ask me to create something fro them in Rl so it works for me Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:55] Juanita Deharo: well unless it is linked to rl there is NO way you can establish copyright in SL
[2008/05/24 17:55] Juanita Deharo: I can go and get any image and bring it in and call it mine
[2008/05/24 17:55] Larkum Woodget is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:55] Nimbus Rau: true.
[2008/05/24 17:56] SuperKara Kline is Offline
[2008/05/24 17:56] Ray Holgado: and we know people are doing that
[2008/05/24 17:56] Nimbus Rau: and it's hard to provide any kind of airtight *proof* that Avatar A is RL Person B.
[2008/05/24 17:56] You: and how rl does it have to get? - what of digital photos I have in SL and on flickr butno longer have teh orginal files due to data loss...
[2008/05/24 17:56] Linc Nefarious: yes, my point, to make SL money. the point of SL is volume. there isnt much now but it will grow. 300L is about $1US dollar. why not sell 500 copies?
[2008/05/24 17:56] Ray Holgado: you can buy any number of famous artist's works
[2008/05/24 17:56] Nimbus Rau: Eventually, it does come down to a certain level of trust, I think.
[2008/05/24 17:56] Octaine Quinnell: If I did not own the artwork I could not really create a similar styled work. Even if the person did steal my commision it would just be bad luck for me I guess. But being a graphic artist - this happens alot in RL
[2008/05/24 17:57] You: all the time Oct
[2008/05/24 17:57] Juanita Deharo: but Octaine I could take an image from the net and use it in SL to create an artwork - then take it out into rl and sell it or use it
[2008/05/24 17:57] Juanita Deharo: so does it matter?
[2008/05/24 17:57] You: if you create a logo or image whilst working for an agenvcy or company then the comapny owns the coipyright not you
[2008/05/24 17:58] Ray Holgado: I like the idea of an art registry b- who suggested that?
[2008/05/24 17:58] Nimbus Rau: well, if you create it under their instruction, yes. Not if you do it for yourself in your own time.
[2008/05/24 17:58] Linc Nefarious: quad...in software its a bit different actually
[2008/05/24 17:58] Juanita Deharo: Would you inlcude 2D images in that?
[2008/05/24 17:58] You: I knew the guy who drew the first boxing kangaroo that got used for the Ammericas cup fame
[2008/05/24 17:58] You: he didn't even geta ty formt he agency he was working with
[2008/05/24 17:58] Octaine Quinnell: Yes Quad
[2008/05/24 17:58] Nimbus Rau: that sucks.
[2008/05/24 17:58] Juanita Deharo: depends how your contracts are drawn up
[2008/05/24 17:59] Octaine Quinnell: Yes
[2008/05/24 17:59] Juanita Deharo: If I sell copyright there's a whacking big hit on the fee
[2008/05/24 17:59] You: true Juanita
[2008/05/24 17:59] Linc Nefarious: as an employee, the employer owns the copyright. as a contractor, you own the copyright.
[2008/05/24 17:59] You: lol yep
[2008/05/24 17:59] Octaine Quinnell: My company owns my creations and ideas
[2008/05/24 17:59] Juanita Deharo: not necessarily Linc
[2008/05/24 17:59] Juanita Deharo: lucky compnay Octaine
[2008/05/24 17:59] Linc Nefarious: it depends of the contracts of course.
[2008/05/24 17:59] Ray Holgado: so is an art register possible?
[2008/05/24 17:59] Ray Holgado: who should keep it?
[2008/05/24 18:00] Ray Holgado: what should be in it?
[2008/05/24 18:00] Ray Holgado: what is this pose Quad?
[2008/05/24 18:00] Ray Holgado: why do I keep scratching my balls?
[2008/05/24 18:00] Octaine Quinnell: But I only have to write a letter asking to publish my art and I have legal rights to do so as I am the original ownerArticle G75
[2008/05/24 18:00] You: lol is your ao ray...
[2008/05/24 18:00] Nimbus Rau: how would you prove authorship for the register in an airtight way?
[2008/05/24 18:01] You: that is the rub
[2008/05/24 18:01] Mayra Roffo is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:01] Juanita Deharo: that's the question nimbus
[2008/05/24 18:01] Nimbus Rau: It really is, isn't it? It all comes down to that, in the end.
[2008/05/24 18:01] Octaine Quinnell: Yes
[2008/05/24 18:01] Octaine Quinnell: We can't seem to ansewr that one
[2008/05/24 18:01] Juanita Deharo: and it is impossible to prove
[2008/05/24 18:02] Jon Haskell is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:02] Juanita Deharo: and such a data base would be totally unmanageable
[2008/05/24 18:02] Gracie Kendal is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:02] Juanita Deharo: But there is a need for some documentation of art and the devel of art in SL
[2008/05/24 18:02] Juanita Deharo: cos people like Dan Coyote are stealing the story
[2008/05/24 18:02] Nimbus Rau: well, it might be provable in person - "here's the rough sketches I made leading up to artwork A; and I'll now paint a pic in the same style as artwork B.." but without RL contact, it's very hard.
[2008/05/24 18:03] Nimbus Rau: Dan Coyote?
[2008/05/24 18:03] Juanita Deharo: 'hyperformalism'
[2008/05/24 18:03] Octaine Quinnell: Yes Nim Ithought of doing that too
[2008/05/24 18:03] You: yes he's very vociferois
[2008/05/24 18:03] Linc Nefarious: well, you can embed a digital signature into a work. but how do you stop someone making basically a copy. its not the original, but so what?
[2008/05/24 18:03] Nimbus Rau: I'm not familiar with him or his work.
[2008/05/24 18:03] Octaine Quinnell: But still can't prove ownership of any of those items either really
[2008/05/24 18:03] You: and confrontational when approched about his art
[2008/05/24 18:03] Juanita Deharo: the story of sl art is being written by a few
[2008/05/24 18:03] Juanita Deharo: there is a need for some proper art historians in sl
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: you have to know a few overhyped names
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: check the blogs
[2008/05/24 18:04] Nimbus Rau: *nod* I'll do that. any in particular?
[2008/05/24 18:04] Nimbus Rau accepted your inventory offer.
[2008/05/24 18:04] Juanita Deharo: you cant prove copyright of items made only in sl either
[2008/05/24 18:04] Octaine Quinnell: Well you can't stop somone making a copy but it is illegal
[2008/05/24 18:04] You: notecard of his latest press release
[2008/05/24 18:04] Nimbus Rau: thanks, Quad. :-)
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: ok people very nice talk - gotto go back to my builds :)
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: ty quad
[2008/05/24 18:04] You: yw White thanks for coming
[2008/05/24 18:04] Octaine Quinnell: ByeWhite
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: oups
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: lol
[2008/05/24 18:04] White Lebed: that wasnt' graceful
[2008/05/24 18:05] You: lol sorry
[2008/05/24 18:05] White Lebed: the table if phantom
[2008/05/24 18:05] White Lebed: lol
[2008/05/24 18:05] White Lebed: no i tis funny
[2008/05/24 18:05] You: dismounting in sl rarely is lol
[2008/05/24 18:05] White Lebed: cu
[2008/05/24 18:05] Ray Holgado: Octiane if I sold something as mod so someone couold resize it all they have to do is link a transparent ball to it and it says they made it
[2008/05/24 18:05] You: not in inspect it doesn't
[2008/05/24 18:05] Linc Nefarious: what about embedding a digital signature into the work using what is called steganography. which is embedding information into an image.
[2008/05/24 18:06] You: I could have shown you - as White was wearing a pair of earrings she made out of an item I gave her
[2008/05/24 18:06] Octaine Quinnell: Can be edited out in most programs Linc
[2008/05/24 18:06] You: the prims she borrowed form my work would still show me as creator
[2008/05/24 18:06] Linc Nefarious: yes it can. but without it, it isnt the real thing.
[2008/05/24 18:06] Juanita Deharo: true- but the object would say it was created by her
[2008/05/24 18:07] Fangorn Dengaku is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:07] White Lebed is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:07] You: only on the edit level
[2008/05/24 18:07] Juanita Deharo: but you could put in a false one then Linc
[2008/05/24 18:07] You: inspect is easy and shows creator prim by prim
[2008/05/24 18:07] Ray Holgado: It seems an impossible question
[2008/05/24 18:07] You: sorry folks - I will have to leave you - I am attending a rl course today
[2008/05/24 18:07] Ginseng Kyong is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:07] Nimbus Rau: Juanita, anyone who's ever built an object in Sl would know that checkign other prims would help clarify any issues regarding who made what.
[2008/05/24 18:07] Linc Nefarious: true, but again, it isnt the real thing. a person can fake it sure, but only you have the real object.
[2008/05/24 18:07] Juanita Deharo: and I have to hanfg out the washing
[2008/05/24 18:08] Juanita Deharo: thanks Qyad - an interesting topic
[2008/05/24 18:08] Juanita Deharo: bye all
[2008/05/24 18:08] You: please stay and discuss the issue - I will leave my av here so I can stiull create a transcript and will post it to the salon's own blog\
[2008/05/24 18:08] Octaine Quinnell: Bye Quad
[2008/05/24 18:08] RITCHEY Jacobus: bye juan
[2008/05/24 18:08] Nimbus Rau: oh, seeya, quad! Interesting discussion indeed. Thanks for organising it!
[2008/05/24 18:08] You: ty Juanita see you agin soon
[2008/05/24 18:08] Ray Holgado: yes thanks quad
[2008/05/24 18:08] Ray Holgado: nice to meet you all too
[2008/05/24 18:08] Linc Nefarious: it raises more questions than it answers im afraid
[2008/05/24 18:08] Nimbus Rau: oh, the salon has a blog? the things one learns. ;-)
[2008/05/24 18:08] Octaine Quinnell: Bye Juanita
[2008/05/24 18:08] You: there will be another salon in a fortnight
[2008/05/24 18:08] You: It will by this eveing lol
[2008/05/24 18:09] Nimbus Rau: bye Juanita!
[2008/05/24 18:09] You: farewell
[2008/05/24 18:09] You: afk
[2008/05/24 18:09] Nimbus Rau: That's the problem with complicated issues, Linc. If it were easy we'd have the solution already. :-7
[2008/05/24 18:09] fabilene Cortes: :) I will try to read again all this
[2008/05/24 18:09] RITCHEY Jacobus: i must be off see you all again
[2008/05/24 18:09] Ray Holgado: Rictchey you are a bit of an inspiration the way you use SL for marketing
[2008/05/24 18:09] Ray Holgado: nice to meet you
[2008/05/24 18:10] RITCHEY Jacobus: yes thank you ray
[2008/05/24 18:10] Octaine Quinnell: Yes Ritchey
[2008/05/24 18:10] fabilene Cortes: thanks for inviting me to the discussion, Octaine
[2008/05/24 18:10] fabilene Cortes: see you all
[2008/05/24 18:10] Ray Holgado: you were very quiet fabilene
[2008/05/24 18:10] Octaine Quinnell: That is OK Fabilene
[2008/05/24 18:10] Nimbus Rau waves goodbye to everyone who's leaving now
[2008/05/24 18:10] Linc Nefarious: for sure. but at least we are starting to ask better questions
[2008/05/24 18:10] Nimbus Rau: Um, is anyone staying?
[2008/05/24 18:10] Ray Holgado: bye nimbus
[2008/05/24 18:10] RITCHEY Jacobus: see you
[2008/05/24 18:10] Octaine Quinnell: I can for a bit
[2008/05/24 18:10] RITCHEY Jacobus: all again soon
[2008/05/24 18:10] Linc Nefarious: im staying for a while
[2008/05/24 18:10] Ray Holgado: I spose I ought to get some sunlight or I might wilt
[2008/05/24 18:10] fabilene Cortes: I was trying to understand each point and to see what I missed :)
[2008/05/24 18:11] fabilene Cortes: I am always very quiet when I just want to learn :)
[2008/05/24 18:11] Nimbus Rau: I find it all very interesting to discuss, but my issues are a little different to those of many 2d artists.
[2008/05/24 18:11] Ray Holgado: you are a sculptor
[2008/05/24 18:11] Ray Holgado: ?
[2008/05/24 18:11] fabilene Cortes: right, Nimbus
[2008/05/24 18:11] Nimbus Rau: I like to fondly imagine that the compexity of my avs helps prevent casual copying, at the very least. But who knows? I could be kidding myself.
[2008/05/24 18:11] Octaine Quinnell: Yes well the discission might help you wtih your own SL Gallery Fab
[2008/05/24 18:12] Nimbus Rau: I make avatars. The one I'm wearing is my current work-in-progress.
[2008/05/24 18:12] Ray Holgado: ahah - you make avatars - like that fabulous dragon
[2008/05/24 18:12] Octaine Quinnell: Please jon us again Fabilene
[2008/05/24 18:12] fabilene Cortes: That's why it is so difficult to give a general answer about copyrights and artworks in sl :) see you again
[2008/05/24 18:12] Ray Holgado: Are you the one who made those cats?
[2008/05/24 18:12] fabilene Cortes: it is 3am for me :)
[2008/05/24 18:12] Ray Holgado: bye fabilene
[2008/05/24 18:12] Nimbus Rau: yes, exactly, fab! but it's an interesting topic to debate, just the same.
[2008/05/24 18:13] Octaine Quinnell: yes
[2008/05/24 18:13] Nimbus Rau: Yes, I made some cats as well. dunno if they're the ones you've seen, but it's pretty likely that they might be. :-)
[2008/05/24 18:13] Lord Coalcliff is Offline
[2008/05/24 18:13] Ray Holgado: they were on the catwalk (!) at quads one night
[2008/05/24 18:14] Nimbus Rau: yup, those were mine. :-)
[2008/05/24 18:14] Octaine Quinnell: Nim your artwork is much harder to copy than our SD RL artwork once in SL
[2008/05/24 18:14] Octaine Quinnell: 2D
[2008/05/24 18:14] Octaine Quinnell: sorry
[2008/05/24 18:14] Nimbus Rau: yes, that's my point. it's not impossible, but the issues are more technical than ethical, for me, to some degree. If that makes sense.
[2008/05/24 18:14] Linc Nefarious: true. you have an advantage there
[2008/05/24 18:14] Ray Holgado: Octaine - I think the best thing is to make only SL artworks
[2008/05/24 18:14] Nimbus Rau: It's probably the *safest* way, anyway.
[2008/05/24 18:15] Octaine Quinnell: Yes I have started
[2008/05/24 18:15] Octaine Quinnell: pop over to my studio and you can see my progress
[2008/05/24 18:15] Ray Holgado: But its also probably the way we should go - make a new world
[2008/05/24 18:15] Ray Holgado: not just a 3D replica
[2008/05/24 18:15] Octaine Quinnell: But one of my builds combines Rl and SL artwork
[2008/05/24 18:16] Nimbus Rau: I get a bit leery of too many *shoulds* - everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do in SL. There's space for all of us here. :-)
[2008/05/24 18:16] Ray Holgado: sorry - yes nimbus
[2008/05/24 18:16] Octaine Quinnell: Sometimes not enough space
[2008/05/24 18:16] Linc Nefarious: I like the idea of SL/RL bleeding a bit into each other
[2008/05/24 18:16] Octaine Quinnell: Yes me too
[2008/05/24 18:16] Nimbus Rau: That said, it always amazes and delights me when someone does something Cool and Original in SL.
[2008/05/24 18:16] Ray Holgado: yes I like that too Linc
[2008/05/24 18:16] Octaine Quinnell: Gices the world some groundign
[2008/05/24 18:16] Octaine Quinnell: grounding
[2008/05/24 18:16] Octaine Quinnell: lol
[2008/05/24 18:17] Linc Nefarious: if I saw something amazing in SL, it would be great to be able to hang it in my house in RL if I wanted to
[2008/05/24 18:17] Octaine Quinnell: Can I res an example
[2008/05/24 18:17] Nimbus Rau: yeah. It's all very well to get all transhumanist and enthused about SL, but we come to it from RL, with our RL backgrounds and experiences. Starting with a visual language that folk can understand can be valuable, I think.
[2008/05/24 18:17] Nimbus Rau: One doesn't have to stay there, but it can be a good starting point.
[2008/05/24 18:18] Ray Holgado: true- that's why I make baskets!
[2008/05/24 18:18] Nimbus Rau: yep. and it's why I make cat avs as well as more fantastical things.
[2008/05/24 18:19] Octaine Quinnell: My Rl art is very photo real - my SL art is pure abstract
[2008/05/24 18:19] Nimbus Rau: I have a project on the drawing board that I'll start seriously working on after I've finished this dragonet, and that new project's seriously abstract and fantastical. I'm *really* looking forward to working on it.
[2008/05/24 18:19] Ray Holgado: but you could combibe the two in SL I guess
[2008/05/24 18:19] Octaine Quinnell: Yes
[2008/05/24 18:19] Ray Holgado: Nimbus - creativity is the buzz
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